Curse

Airstu · Jun 12, 2008, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety
PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name....

Ill sign that post (its been quoted enough, no need to quote it again), ty for phrasing it so well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi
There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.

Well put also. I enjoy my GW experience, I play my way and have fun doing it. The OP and the zealots to the (for lack of a better term) anti-ursan crusade don't speak for me no matter how many times they claim they do.

Symeon · Jun 12, 2008, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

arcanemacabre · Jun 12, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

Exactly. While Avarre and I differ on many things, even some relating to the topic (I actually like the PvE/PvP split, just wish it was done a lot differently and with balance/challenge in mind), the overall direction the game is going in is greatly saddening for us both. If the game continues down this current path, it will become a joke. And I don't mean just a joke to 'vets' or this 'elitist minority,' but to a greater majority that extends to other competing games. The very image of Guild Wars will be that of a free online game any mentally handicapped chimpanzee can mash buttons to victory.

As I said before, though, I just don't care enough for it to bother me that much (to the point of making a thread like this), and I actually still enjoy the game from time-to-time as a fun little escape. Still, I suppose if the devs want their game to be only a fun little escape, then they are on the right track.

zwei2stein · Jun 12, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

...

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

Okay, what about process-oriented people who like process itself to have some meaning. And require/reward skill. I couldn't care less about Goals, i used to have respect for them, but that is about year and half ago. I like to do stuff that requires skill. Hell, i am quite likely to just log off after killing most dangerous mobs in hm area, not caring about that +1 on title. I was content that arenanet didn't really recognize my gameplay: after all, GWs was best in this direction of other similar games. But now it got destroyed?

Because when you peel away all those titles and statues, core gameplay remains. Goals are just things that make you do stuff. And thats what makes or kills game: Good or bad core gameplay. Which in GWs is good or bad skill system.

This is what i don't understand: Gameplay of GWs was good enough to gather impressive following. Without artificial goals of titles back in prophecies days. It served game well over all chapters until expansion Why kill that? Why do U-turn on that?

What is so damn important at making everybody do everything even at cost of joke gameplay?

Whats with all this socialism of achievement? Why does game have to suffer because of that, why is it desirable to begin with?

And as they are enabling "goals" to masses while they kill gameplay, why remove grandest goal of all: Become Good Player? Why remove gameplay that supported and propelled people towards this?

Why everything one does in game that earns you some recognition is so .... degenerate?

Mad King Corn · Jun 12, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

GW did not change to please the handicapped, it changed to meet the demands of its users. Alot of us were sick and tired of PVP nerfs ruining the gamplay for PVE. This was not a small percentage of players, it was a huge number. Take a peek back through the forums and you will see what I mean.
I can't count the times, my builds were nerfed to death in the name of PVP. My Ritualist ruined, My paragon ruined, my Mesmer etc... Soul Reaping nerf , stacking armor nerf. Pets without exploitable corpses etc... This ruined the fun and gameplay for many people, not just us people with handicaps.

Guild Wars in its current state is enjoyable to me as well as a lot of other people. Im sure Anet just needs to look at the daily logs to realize that there are many people still playing the game. We do not wish to have our game butchered so that a few of you elite people can have your way. U have a choice to use the skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed, what choice does the rest of us have? GW1 needs to remain as it is, if Anet decides to design GW2 around you elite players, then I hope you enjoy GW2...by yourself!

Supermarkets were not always built with handicapped people in mind either, but these companies do realize that handicapped people are people too and would bring in increased revenue, so most businesses now serve the handicapped, and I an very happy that Anet has chosen to do so.

makosi · Jun 12, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

That's true, which is why i never said everybody was a follower. I agree with a fair bit of the OP but many people are jumping on the bandwagon wielding pitchforks and torches... hating for the sake of hating.

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I'm going to give you guys a quote I felt was relevant. This was said by DJWheat, host of Weapon of Choice, in episode 43 which was released shortly after the Nightfall PvP preview weekend. I don't know how many of you listened to WoC, but I think this equally important regarding some of the issues then and now. The discussion here is based largely around how the two new classes and skills turned the PvP weekend into one of the worst gimmick-fests of all time.

PS: I know ANet probably listened to a few of these at least, especially Izzy, but this is for you to check out too if you happen to skim the forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoC 43

Kestrel: 'If PvE is your main focus, why are you busting out all these new skills and classes, why not just do what WoW does and offer brand new areas, and open up a whole 'nother map, another continent, another set of quests?'

<He talks a bit about how the he feels PvE players are more concerned just with playing through PvE, and you don't need to constantly add new classes and skills to appease them as a playerbase when you can add new content to explore and play through>

DJWheat: '[ANet's] model relies on additional content. That is one of the benefits to being a non-monthly subscriber to Guild Wars, you have the option to purchase content and get it and that is ultimately where the money is made. Unfortunately, and I'm sure they never realized this, and maybe they did, I don't know, when they're creating these games, when they're putting these together, who would have known they had a hit on their hands, and they had an inherent flaw with the way they were going to add content and that is going to decimate the competitive community. Now, I shouldn't say that it's going to decimate it, there's always going to be people that play it, right? There's always going to be people playing the competitive side."

Kestrel: 'Well, the good people are gonna leave'.

DJWheat: You're right, this current generation is going to leave, new folks are going to leave, and the reason why is because in this day and age gamers want a game that is ageless. They want a game that they can... and Counter Strike 1.6 is a great example. That game looks like shit, it's older than my Gramma, and there are still a crapload of people that play it like CRAZY. When Source came out people were like 'Oh Source is going to decimate 1.6 it's got better graphics, its got a better engine,' and what did they prove? That you don't need great graphics, you don't need the most amazing friggin' physics engine that you can see peoples' eyeballs rolling down the stairs the same way they would in real life, you don't need that crap. What you need is good solid gameplay. That's what Prophecies had and that's what is slowly but surely being eaten away by the new content of Guild Wars.'

Kestrel: 'Well, you can't develop skill if you're changing the rules every ten minutes. You're not going to find the best Counter-Strike player if every three months they add two new weapons...."

<Skipping ahead slightly, past talk on the two new classes in Nightfall>

DJWheat: 'It's the same reason why StarCraft... they had their expansion pack, Brood Wars. They're like 'if we add anything else, we're going to completely jack this game.' And they left it as it is. Which is why, still to this day, nobody says 'God it would be great if the Zerg had one more unit.' NO. IT WOULDN'T BE. THE GAME'S ALREADY OK. DON'T CHANGE IT ANYMORE!'

Kestrel: 'The problem... the truth is ANet is just greedy. Instead of being happy with what they've produced, and letting it be popular and grow, and working on another game, and trying to make that popular, the way Blizzard went from StarCraft to WarCraft to whatever, they're saying 'lets make as much off of this one title, the one we managed to make any money off of', they've decided of instead of paying once, and letting it be huge like StarCraft, they've made one game that works and milked it.

Now, I'm not saying these people are masters of the game (although they do, or did, have a lot of experience). But the points they raise are prevalent. ANet's continual changes are destructive to the game as a whole, and they are this way because instead of just adding content to keep people playing, they're changing the gameplay itself every time new content comes out. That is not a good way to develop a game. PvE could be expanded with new zones, PvP could be given balance tweaks and new maps, but warping the gameplay with no clear focus is just ridiculous.

Why did Guild Wars gameplay need changes made to it? Why did the mechanics need changing, when it was already clear the game worked and was popular? This is my issue, I do not understand why you would take a popular, growing game and experiment freely with it rather than making a new game to test new concepts with. It's a disservice to your previous playerbase.

This also shows something else, for those of you who are maybe newer to the issue. The problem of ANet doing things like this isn't new. It's not a PvE skill issue, or an Ursan issue, or even a PvE issue. The PvP game was first on the chopping block of experimentation, and it was going on since the release of Factions itself. If you listen to the entire episode (which isn't expected, hence why I'm drawing quotes), DJWheat talks about how if this is what ANet is doing, and it's clear the game is being driven to absurdity, why are we playing at all? I'll let the large numbers of the older players who left the game speak for themselves.

The Meth · Jun 12, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Anet, stop screwing up your game

I agree with this message.

Lagg · Jun 12, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

It should not have come to this.

At least, his voice will be heard over those of the common people who have been demanding explanations for months.

queen glory · Jun 12, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I am also A veteran Player (plated from day 1 to around Feb. '08)
All players from that time (first few months) know where Avarre is talking about, the game in those days is a much diffrent game than that we're playing now, and yes I do think that this is the Dev's fault *pointing at updates, but mostly at NF and EotN*

The points that Avarre gives us are true, ofcourse not everybody can agree, but the veterans know that the game is never going to be the same as it once was.

/signed for this Epic post
* and Avarre, you should think about writhing a book (:

* Votes for Sticky!!

DarkNecrid · Jun 12, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

GW did not change to please the handicapped, it changed to meet the demands of its users. Alot of us were sick and tired of PVP nerfs ruining the gamplay for PVE. This was not a small percentage of players, it was a huge number. Take a peek back through the forums and you will see what I mean.

These games get balanced a lot, and PvP balance is inherently more important than PvE balance because PvP involves players, and gives irl prizes. Sooo, I'm going to take a look at what you complained about.

Quote:

I can't count the times, my builds were nerfed to death in the name of PVP.

OK.

Quote:

My Ritualist ruined

uh...when?? I'm pretty sure they gave Rits a really helpful PvE skill, and they still rule. Splinter Weapon pretty much rapes everything.

Quote:

My paragon ruined

Is still the most broken class in the game, even in PvE.

Quote:

my Mesmer

Is still rly good tho Mesmers only kinda suck in PvE because of how the mobs are made.

Quote:

Soul Reaping nerf

Still the best primary attribute in the game.

Quote:

stacking armor nerf

Doesn't matter thanks to [Save Yourselves].

Quote:

Pets without exploitable corpses etc

Who cares.

I'm pretty sure your entirely complaint is your failure to adapt and do what the entire point of the game is, which is to build skill bars and use them. If a skill bar goes away, make a new one.

o wait there's Ursan now so no one has to anyways except Monks. rite.

Quote:

Guild Wars in its current state is enjoyable to me as well as a lot of other people. Im sure Anet just needs to look at the daily logs to realize that there are many people still playing the game. We do not wish to have our game butchered so that a few of you elite people can have your way. U have a choice to use the skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed, what choice does the rest of us have? GW1 needs to remain as it is, if Anet decides to design GW2 around you elite players, then I hope you enjoy GW2...by yourself!

Use your skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed.

Quote:

Supermarkets were not always built with handicapped people in mind either, but these companies do realize that handicapped people are people too and would bring in increased revenue, so most businesses now serve the handicapped, and I an very happy that Anet has chosen to do so.

I find this pretty offensive, being a semi-handicapped person myself and knowing many handicapped people too (note: supermarkets aren't build for all handicapped people, but I'm assuming you mean paraplegics? I'm not that tho.) How dare you say that supermarkets did that crap just to bring people like me in for more cash.

That's just wrong. Maybe it's because, I dunnno, they were actually decent human beings?

Oh, but that'd be crazy.

EDIT:
QFT with the WoC + Avarre post. It's insanely hard to balance anything when new stuff is added.

We might get there 16 years from now now that they've decided to stop with 1200 skills and 10 classes.

Argentino · Jun 12, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

This open letter represents the thoughts of all veteran players i think, it doesn't speak just for u but for all of us.
I hope Anet reads, double reads and triple reads this, but i'm afraid they will continue the chosen path... but maybe, just maybe they can learn a lesson here.
It does amaze me that they aren't aware of this themselves (anet must have employees who play gw like we do (also veterans)) or are they doin this with a reason ...?

As for me ... after doin everything 3-4 times, it's all getting ... how shall i put this ... a bit boring, after grinding fow/uw/doa for the xth time, after completing all games, even in Hm... what is left to do? I don't want to go to another game, basically i'm waiting for gw2, but that's still a long time away.

/signed!

PowerSurge · Jun 12, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

/signed

CHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARS

Evil Genius · Jun 12, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

/signed

It raises most/all major points well. This should be a must read for GW's PR. There's like 4? PR people, and all of them will be to scared to post and face the truth. Or maybe they just don't do anything. I don't know.

Prove me wrong GW staff.

Lopezus · Jun 12, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

DJWheat: You're right, this current generation is going to leave, new folks are going to leave, and the reason why is because in this day and age gamers want a game that is ageless. They want a game that they can... and Counter Strike 1.6 is a great example. That game looks like shit, it's older than my Gramma, and there are still a crapload of people that play it like CRAZY. When Source came out people were like 'Oh Source is going to decimate 1.6 it's got better graphics, its got a better engine,' and what did they prove? That you don't need great graphics, you don't need the most amazing friggin' physics engine that you can see peoples' eyeballs rolling down the stairs the same way they would in real life, you don't need that crap. What you need is good solid gameplay. That's what Prophecies had and that's what is slowly but surely being eaten away by the new content of Guild Wars.'

It would be a vaild point if GW had a possibililty of being such an ageless game, maybe in pvp it had a high chance, but from pve perspective ... no i don't belive this could ever happen. People strive for a new content and in my opinion giving new campagins,areas and quest wouldnt be enough and i think that new profesions and skills, even these pve skilles from EOTN had not only sold thi snew content but alos made people play gw for longer then they would without it.

My general opinion now :
These days (with my age,work,life issues) i am very fastidious when it comes to games i choose to play. I spend 700 hours now on playing gw, in my meaning even if it will be completly ruined by devs ( and many people think that it happend ) i will never said bad word about this game, if i spend 700 hours playing computer game it has to be exeptionally good or better said a truly fantastic title.

lyra_song · Jun 12, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

It would be a vaild point if GW had a possibililty of being such an ageless game, maybe in pvp it had a high chance, but from pve perspective ... no i don't belive this could ever happen. People strive for a new content and in my opinion giving new campagins,areas and quest wouldnt be enough and i think that new profesions and skills, even these pve skilles from EOTN had not only sold thi snew content but alos made people play gw for longer then they would without it.

Counterstrike and Starcraft are not known for their "1 player mode".

They are ageless because of their PvP.

Guild Wars had that same exact potential.

Its a completely valid point.

PvE can never be ageless, You will eventually be able to finish it, since theres an endpoint, if you just spend enough time, you will finish it.

antialias02 · Jun 12, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I like the game ANet made, and I'm sure I'll like the game ANet will make. You guys can postulate and pontificate all you want about what ArenaNet "should do," because clearly everyone who plays the game has "the answer to the problem." And only people who frequent forums at all even think there's a problem to be solved.

8 out of 10 of my friends who play Guild Wars could care less about Guru or GWO, and they continue to think that, 3 years later, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game.

I know, my post is already tl;dr (still nowhere near Avarre's diatribe), but suffice to say that coming on guru and posting, in effect, "GW sucks, try again" is going to solve absolutely nothing, no matter how important you think you are or how long of a post you write.

This entire thread is content that people have been repeating for the past 6 months. There is nothing here that hasn't been beaten to death already, here or in GWO or QQ. ArenaNet knows what you think.

Nice block of text, though. Great for decoration and appearances, and for the community to pat itself on the back and tell itself what a fantastic job it's doing of telling ArenaNet how to do its job.

sixofone · Jun 12, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.

You put your finger on exactly where ANet went "wrong": uber-mobs, and "balancing" that with imba skills, and eventually consumables.

The frustration of the player base is like the scene in Monty Python & the Holy Grail where Michael Palin wants the guard to stay and watch his son so he doesn't escape:

"Right - you stay 'ere and make sure 'e doesn't leave."
"So - we go with you?"

Avarre and others have, time and again, suggested, hinted, begged, and outright demanded, that ANet not continue down that path. And every time, ANet did exactly the thing they, and others, were complaining were killing the game.

Had ANet not made lvl28-30 mobs with uber-monster skills, chances are you would not have been quite so frustrated. (A semi-intelligent henchman AI, as well as decent builds, would have helped, too.) Heroes are a god-send due to the horrible builds and AI of the henchmen, granting a better degree of control though by no means a replacement for a thinking human. But, granting us imba PvE skills and consumables to "compensate"? Not good.

It also further made changes to PvP affect PvE, and vice versa. On the other hand, had PvE been as close to PvP as possible - smarter AI, and an even playing field in terms of health & energy - you would have had the same chance as anyone else, regardless of your physical challenges. The PvP vs PvE split would not be as necessary, and PvE would actually have served what (as I understood it when I first started) was to be a "training ground" for PvP.

Personally, I like the Prophecies design of: different builds for different areas. One has to adapt, depending on where you are adventuring. But, back on topic - this is at the heart of what Avarre has grown frustrated with, and why he has uttered one last demand: "Tell me - what teh Hell you were thinking?" GW offered one thing, that set it apart, and then began to go in entirely another direction. They're free to do so, but at least give a straight answer about it. It will appeal to some and not to others. Fine! So be it. Just be honest about it.

antialias02 · Jun 12, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

You put your finger on exactly where ANet went "wrong": uber-mobs, and "balancing" that with imba skills, and eventually consumables.

The frustration of the player base is like the scene in Monty Python & the Holy Grail where Michael Palin wants the guard to stay and watch his son so he doesn't escape:

"Right - you stay 'ere and make sure 'e doesn't leave."
"So - we go with you?"

Avarre and others have, time and again, suggested, hinted, begged, and outright demanded, that ANet not continue down that path. And every time, ANet did exactly the thing they, and others, were complaining were killing the game.

Had ANet not made lvl28-30 mobs with uber-monster skills, chances are you would not have been quite so frustrated. (A semi-intelligent henchman AI, as well as decent builds, would have helped, too.) Heroes are a god-send due to the horrible builds and AI of the henchmen, granting a better degree of control though by no means a replacement for a thinking human. But, granting us imba PvE skills and consumables to "compensate"? Not good.

It also further made changes to PvP affect PvE, and vice versa. On the other hand, had PvE been as close to PvP as possible - smarter AI, and an even playing field in terms of health & energy - you would have had the same chance as anyone else, regardless of your physical challenges. The PvP vs PvE split would not be as necessary, and PvE would actually have served what (as I understood it when I first started) was to be a "training ground" for PvP.

Personally, I like the Prophecies design of: different builds for different areas. One has to adapt, depending on where you are adventuring. But, back on topic - this is at the heart of what Avarre has grown frustrated with, and why he has uttered one last demand: "Tell me - what teh Hell you were thinking?" GW offered one thing, that set it apart, and then began to go in entirely another direction. They're free to do so, but at least give a straight answer about it. It will appeal to some and not to others. Fine! So be it. Just be honest about it.

You do realize there are players who like the very thing you dislike, right? Just saying.

DarkNecrid · Jun 12, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

PvE can never be ageless, You will eventually be able to finish it, since theres an endpoint, if you just spend enough time, you will finish it.

I wouldn't say that. Games like Super Mario Bros. are played endlessly because they are fun, still a bit of a challenge, and can be timed.